Автор: Jessika ,
1 ноября 2007 г. в 00:14
Has anybody ever heard of joint injections in horses? It is just coming out in US, so I don't think anybody in Russia has heard of it. It is actually really good for horses that are ridden more than 30mins 4days a week. Anything more puts a lot of straint on the equine joints, and most horses have countless injuries, and go lame. My tainer and her husband (a vet) have been injecting this horse, Nantes (i take care of him, there are pics of him on my equestrian.ru page), for about 7 years now, and he has never been lame, and he is a Grand Prix dressage horse. check out www.thehorse.com, it is a website an dalso a magazine on horse health, and search for joint injections.
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7 апреля 2009, 01:23:18
WOAH Nellie!!!! Joint injections are good for any horse that works regularly??? OH MY GOODNESS!! RUN away from anyone who says this. Especially a dressage trainer. Dressage (correctly done) is supposed to prolong the horses useful life and soundness, not to destroy its joints to the point where they require injections. Injections have been around for quite a while. Joint injections cary significant risk of introducing imfection into the joint (every time injection is performed). Yes, if you want to keep a Grand Prix horse with ruined joints in work you may well need these injections. The fact that the horse requires them does not speak well for his training. Injections do not improve the condition of joints, rather, they manage inflamation. Truth to be told, each injection wares away at the cartilage of the joins. Less serious cases are often managed well with other anti-inflamatories - anything from topical creams to yucca powder (yucca is a natural powerful antiinflamatory that's not only NOT harmful to the horse's stomach, but actually is recognized as beneficial to the horse's digestive tract and overall health).
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:18
Joint injections are a ligit way to keep sport horses sound. Horses aren't built for riding, if you do a thermogram on any sport horse that doesn't get joint injections you will discover that 99.9% of those horses are lame. Why you do you think horses buck, rear, take off, refuse to jump, most of the answers are found in physical aspects of the horse. If anybody wants to ride their horse all the time, the better keep the joints of their horse healthy.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:18
I am speechless... I think it is really scary that a young person hold this view. Well, what do you have to say about horses that are trained correctly and work at a very advanced age, let's take the Spanish Riding School of Vienna. Their stallions are very sound and work hard into their late 20s. When they were on tour here last year (or was it 2 year ago, can't remember) the oldest performing horse was 28 years old. He was obviously sound enough for trans-Atlantic travel, multi city tour of the US, I might be mistaken, but I think he was a courbette horse, so yes, he was performing airs above the ground as well. He was retired upon his return, but not due to any health issues, but rather into the stud, so he could produce more horses like this.
Of course horses are not built to be ridden. The aime of dressage training is to gymnastically develop horse's body (and mind) to shift the natural balance from the forehand to the hind quarters (that greatly aides in carrying a rider) with well engaged joins in the hind end (all of them, not just hocks). This is why I keep saying, that if the horse is worked "CORRECTLY" there should not be any issues. Again, I do grant you that with breeding huge horses we often get weak joints, rushed training (to sell young horses at the auctions) finishes the job, OCD is a very prevalent issue in young warmbloods (or other large horses). Yes, the horse destroyed like that at a young age will need injections to stay serviceably sound, there is no way to undo the damage.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Jessica, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I have got a very sensitive and reactive horse. For quite some time I have been trying on myself all remedies prescribed. Then only I give that to my horse. How could I survive that I do not know. My doctor is in charge then.
If the horse is unwilling to obey in jumping the problem may be anywhere - back, shoulder etc.
Joints is the last terrain you want to trod. I have seen very sad post effects of that practice. What you are saying reminds me of several local farriers willing to do orthopedic shoeing right away. As a result of one leg ' bearing' is 'improved' while three other feet go lame.
Joints 'architecture' is most perfect and most vulnerable
at the same time.Commercial procedures are incompatible, if not to say the worst.I do not invite you to inject your joints. Let the vet try first on himself.
Take care.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Yes, it is true that some horses go and perform into their later years, but did it occure that these horses have double bridles, which is how they control them? I have been to one of their shows, and the horses just look plain miserable. Also, the riders use spurs and whips, which is a way to make them "look" good. Also, horses may be made from the same material as we are but they are built competely diffrent. YOu have to look at the bone densities and the muscles, and how the ridier on the back of the horse has affect on the horse. The vet that does the injections on the horses at our barn went to Colorado State University, which has one of the best vet programs, you can almost always find one of their articles in EQUUS, and I'm sure in other horse health magazines. Another thing, I am an athlete and I know what impact does exercise has on my body, but I know my limits, and I am not poked with spurs, or wacked with a whip to make me run, it is my own choice. While I belive that the less medice you have to use on your horses thae better, and I am a big supporter of Nevzorov, Dr. Cook, Pat Parelli, Strasser, and other horseman who don't spend all their time drilling horses, but looking into science to find answers on horse "training" and care, I do think that if you ARE going to be "working" your horse, you might as well make it more comfortable for him. Also, if joints aren't healthy, your horses back or shoulders, or any other part of the horse, won't be healthy either, it is biomechanics.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
There are quite a few good points in your post, however I would proceed from the essentials:number one is if the horse is fit enough to become equine athelete. If he is not, or if his conformation leaves much to be desired, whatever joint enjections are practised they will not help in overcoming physical disorder.
Secondly, the horse's body, same as human body is a single whole. If there is joint fluid deficiency, it refers to the whole body, and not to the limited number of those joints which the vet's needle can reach. What is the point in injecting one joint and leaving two hundren others untreated?
I would say, that the best known remedy is proper and gradulal exercising program in any sport.
I have known quite a few ballet dancers. What they do is well beyond the avarage person's limits. The partner has to carry ballerina which may be more difficult than what the horse has to do.(just compare the weight proportions). And what is the performance span of average dancer?18-20 years of intense professional career.
I have never heard of any of them use joint injections successfully.. The minute they resort to surgery -that is the end of their career..
In Russia they know the secret - Vaganova Method of classical dancer training. Injury prevention is important part of that. I assume, horse people should start learning from baller dancers.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Baseball pitchers have shoulder surgeries, and they still comeback. My track coach had a knee surgerie not too long ago and he is runnig well. Look at race horses, jumpers, cutters, ect, and then do a thermogram on all of them, which is the best way to tell where the horse is hurting physically. And I am not trying to be mean to any of those equestrian people, for I know there are people who really love their horses. I left the equestrian sports because I love horses and know I am just trying to look out for sport horses, by doing a lot of scientific research and talking to people.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
OK, great. Good luck to you and your horsey. As for baseball pitchers who come back - yes, Trevor Hoffman did come back, but through so much physiotherapy and pain that if he were a horse he would surely die. Not through injections, or Cook's bridle, I assure you.
God Almighty, whatever made you bring up baseball pitchers? Why didn't you mention the russian fighter pilot who flew without feet?! Maybe, horses can do the same?
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Come on , Pig, Maresiev had a passion for flying which the horses do not possess.
However we have deviated from the subject. Or we have not?
If I understand Jessica correctly, the absense of 'happy horses' in the horse shows results from the fact that they have not been through the happy procedure of receiving joint injections?
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
And most horses aren't happy in the show ring because they are LAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Jessica, I may have missed your point, but how do the horses manage beyond vet control to get to the show ring if they are lame? It is common knowledge that horses were not created to become man-carriers. However with centuries of breeding this is what they are destined to do today. With proper management and guidance... And if we see a problem in a horse it does not mean his joints should be injected right away.
By the way there are different types of joint injections. Some are anti-inflamatory, like stearoids for example (those indicate a serious problem), others compensate for joints fluids deficiency just to mention the basics.
I would not like to beleive (despite availability illusion) that this is what is happening in the USA on a mass scale.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
It is common knowledge that horses were not created to become man-carriers.
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Perhaps, this is a matter for a different discussion, but I would debate your point, with much vigor an emotion. The saddle horse of today was created by man to be precisely that - a man-carrier. Consider this argument: were Angus cows created to be food for man? My answer - without a doubt.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
and injected horsey: (he is a 6 yr old Oldenburg (jumper):
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x16/equinejess/Loving%20Grove%20Farm/?action=view¤t=HPIM0565.flv
and another one: (this is the $85000 horse)
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x16/equinejess/Loving%20Grove%20Farm/?action=view¤t=HPIM0758.flv
Uno Mas: (this is him before injections):
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x16/equinejess/Loving%20Grove%20Farm/?action=view¤t=HPIM0030.flv http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x16/equinejess/Loving%20Grove%20Farm/?action=view¤t=HPIM0031.flv
I had video of him doing a dressage test, but the computer doesn't want to download it
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
jessica, ну и что эти видео доказывают? первая всадница рысит без стремян, явно придерживая лошарика чтобы не потерять равновесие. пара андалузов в pas-de-deux хорошо спокойно работает, очень приятные лошадки. да, Nantes "до" выглядит не комфортно, хвостит; "после" выглядит лучше. никто же не спорил что инъекции уместны в серьёзных случаях.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Well, if you look closer at the andalusian, you will see that they are in obvious discomfort.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Jessika, I can sell you a special food supplement, for joint problems. All you have to do is pour a scoop of this supplement over the hay. After one month - guaranteed result. After that – one scoop a day. One month worth of supply ( 1 gallon ) - $375.00 plus shipping for the first month, and then $185.00 plus shipping for every month thereafter. Do you want it?
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
No thanks.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
OK, how about injection meds? Same price. Good stuff! Your vet, or even you, can inject it. I'll even include a syringe and needles?
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Come on, Pig, those injections are 'art for art's sake'
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
read below..
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
I'm sorry, but I don't have that kind of money right now, so I'll stick with getting the meds from my vet.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Bingo!!! WE HAVE CONTACT!!! Лед тронулся, господа присяжные заседатели!!!
Jessika, just as you choose to stay with the recommendations of your vet, and the meds he/she prescribes - we, too, choose to stay with our vets, and the meds they prescribe. In other words - are you sure you want to recommend joint injections, or declare our horses unhappy, torchured, etc.?
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Yes, I still want to recomend injections, because i've seen injected horses, and i've seen horses that weren't inject, but this is just is suggestion, I have no power over what you do with your horses, I can just give recomendations and suggestions.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Филипп Филиппович локти положил на стол, вгляделся в Шарикова и спросил:
- Позвольте узнать, что вы можете сказать по поводу прочитанного.
Шариков пожал плечами.
- Да не согласен я.
- С кем? С энгельсом или с каутским?
- С обоими, - ответил Шариков.
- Это замечательно, клянусь богом. "Всех, кто скажет, что другая..." А что бы вы со своей стороны могли предложить?
- Да что тут предлагать?.. А то пишут, пишут... Конгресс, немцы какие-то... Голова пухнет. Взять все, да и поделить...
- Так я и думал, - воскликнул Филипп Филиппович, шлепнув ладонью по скатерти, - именно так и полагал.
- Вы и способ знаете? - Спросил заинтересованный Борменталь.
- Да какой тут способ, - становясь словоохотливым после водки, объяснил Шариков, - дело не хитрое.
[...]
- Вы стоите на самой низшей ступени развития, - перекричал Филипп
Филиппович, - вы еще только формирующееся, слабое в умственном отношении
существо, все ваши поступки чисто звериные, и вы в присутствии двух людей с
университетским образованием позволяете себе с развязностью совершенно
невыносимой подавать какие-то советы космического масштаба и космической же
глупости о том, как все поделить... А в то же время вы наглотались зубного
порошку...
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Still trying to get a better video of Nantes............
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Ok, don't have time or energy for this forum, I have MUCH more inportant problem to deal with right now, anywayz, the video, of Nantes doing Prix St. Geroges Test I, doesn't want to upload, so here is a link to more vidos (dressage and jumper horses) : http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x16/equinejess/Loving%20Grove%20Farm/?mediafilter=videos
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
I brought up baseball pitchers because i am really into baseball (my second passion), I have a lot of connections, and I play baseball with my friends. And I brough them up b/c the other person brought up the atletes. ALso, good luck to YOU with your horsey b/c horses joints aren't built for humans to "work" them.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Oh, so you like baseball? Great! Well, mine and LVT's favorite team just beat the pants off of your team! In a four-game shot-out. Made them all cry like little babies!
Red Sox Foreva!!! We believe!!!
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Wow, how 'bout those Pats! I missed the game and just watched the highlight, and boy am I sorry for missing it... Oh well, there is always the SuperBowl i guess.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Flying Elvis flies as high as ever.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
1) Pig, if you read the journal on my equestrian.ru page you will see that I am a big Red Sox fan. I have been getting a lot of crap from the Rockies' fans, but I was happy that the Sox won!
2) LVT, Are you a vet? Cartilage is not destroyed when injected. It can be, if overinjected or if you use a wrong steroroid. Also, our vet has done over a thousand injections. And how many infections were there? ZERO!!! NONE!!! ZIP!!
3)Everybody, have you ever watched a dressage trainer in US or Europe train? They use so many artificial aids it is redicilous (however you spell that word). My trainer has brought up four Grand Prix horses with no whips or spurs and in snaffles.
4) A horse at our barn was just sold fro $85,000. He has been working 5 days a week for 7 years now. He had 69% score in Prix ST. Georges and is currently trainining Grand Prix. He was veted by the top lameness vet @ CSU and was 100% sound, Perfect joints, he was also radiographed by the top radiologist and ended up with clean radiographs. Also, with recent studies it has been show that injecting joints is good for the horses, they could tell by the fluid in the joints, it was just right (not too much, not too little).
5) There was a famous Denver Broncos Running Back who had his knee injected and cam back to play. And it may not be obvious to most people but athletes do have joint problems, and some of them do get them injected. And as for the pitcher having multi-million $ contracts, it isn't everything to them. Baseball is their passion, that is why they pitch.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Oh, yeah, I forgot to add, GO PATRIOTS!!!!!!!! & BRONCOS (although Broncos suck)
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
My vet went to Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University, and they always publish articles from Tufts, and he thinks that the idea of injecting joints in anything other than grave situations is sheer idiocy. I always agree with my vet.
Have a nice day!
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Pig, I like your vet
Sport injuries happen most of the time due to OVERUSE and abuse. When you have multi-million $ contract that says you pitch no matter what, yes, chances are you get hurt. Thinking riders that care about their horses will not push them beyond their limits.
7 апреля 2009, 01:23:19
Here is a horsey with out injections:
http://photobucket.com/mediadetail/?media=http%3A%2F%2Fi13.photobucket.com%2Fplayer.swf%3Ffile%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fvid13.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa269%2FVicky_Whitlock%2Fdressage%2Fad1d683b.flv&searchTerm=dressage&pageOffset=8
and another one:
http://photobucket.com/mediadetail/?media=http%3A%2F%2Fi227.photobucket.com%2Fplayer.swf%3Ffile%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fvid227.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd245%2Flipilover%2FFashionShowShortVersion.flv&searchTerm=%20dressage&pageOffset=12
and injected one:
computer refuses to open up my CD, so I'll try on a different one.