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Автор: cascaderanch, 2 июня 2004 г. в 19:26

Found a post on this website, asking the same old question: "does the horse benefit from interaction with the owner?" Read some replies and reactions and decided to write a post of my own.

To pet or not to pet, to spoil or not to spoil - this is not a binary question, and it can't be answered with a binary answer. Do what you want. However, if you want my advice - read on.

Never give treats to a horse before you work it. Pet, scratch, rub all you want, but no carrots, or apples, or cookies, or caviar. It’s really hard to do, especially for those of us who love horses, but it’s the right way. Horse should not expect a carrot every time it sees you – it’s your “slave”, however negative the connotation is. I know, my gentle reader, you are appalled by the use of the word “slave”. However, how else do I describe the relationship we have with a horse? We want to ride – we ride. We do not ask our horses is they feel like riding, or not, do we? We don’t pay them, and we don’t let them leave on their own volition, do we? As for love and appreciation that we give them… well, love between a slave owner and a slave is nothing new. The long and the short of it – your horse is your slave. Be kind to it, but remember – you are the Master. You came to work with him, and make him work for you. You saddle him up and you go. Again, no treats while you work. Pet him, scratch him, praise him, but no treats. The reason is obvious.

There is an exception to the rule: Treats are a tool of the trade if you want to teach your horse a trick. For example, you want him to bow. The only (humane) way I know to teach a horse to bow is to hold a carrot in my hand as my hand goes under his chest.

So, when should you give a treat to your horse? After you ride. He did his job, he did it well. Now it’s your turn - you rub him, you groom him, you give him a bath and a treat. When you give treats to a horse, never give them from your hand. The reason is simple:
Your hand should not be viewed as a feeding bucket, or a candy jar. Do not keep carrots in your back pocket. If you do –sooner or later your horse will bite you in the ass. Put the treats in the feeding bucket, and let the horse eat. You might say “But if I put it in the bucket, then what’s the difference between a treat and a bunch of hay? Hay is cheaper!” Precisely!

On the other hand, if you enjoy giving your horse treats and do not care if it forms a bad habit with your horse, then God Bless you, and give him treats all you want! He is your horse! Who says you can’t do what you want with your beloved faithful slave?

ОБСУЖДЕНИЕ

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Екатерина Штатнова
7 апреля 2009, 01:01:59
Re: To be or not to be?...
Oh, in a few seconds this forum will be full of Natural Horsemanship adepts Usually I give the horse one piece of sugar before the work and at least 5 after.
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Владимир Гайнанов
7 апреля 2009, 01:01:59
Re: To be or not to be?...
All right, all right...how about jumping? My horse loves to be thanked with a bit of sugar right after he did a good round, and every round I would say (we can have 6-7 during a training, maybe more).

We did some freejumping ("springarten", is it the same in english?) this tuesday and every time he did it clear - even when it was hard - he was thanked by sugar. But - when he was not good enough - he would not even come to me for sugar - he even tried to continue to give it one more try...

I love my "slave" - and he greets me with loud voice as I step into the stable. That's my weakness...

Two monkeys are sitting in a cell, looking at the bulb, one says to another:
- you know what this bulb is here for?
- what?
- so that the people would know when to bring us bananas.

So, who is the slave - one who enjoys living in a stable with enough food and care and a little work, or another one - waking up at 7 a.m., running to the office to earn some cash and spend it to pay for stable, food, training....they are more kids to us then slaves. IMHO.

Aesop was a slave too, wasn't he? ;-)

Enjoy your day,

BOBA
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cascaderanch
7 апреля 2009, 01:01:59
Re: To be or not to be?...
Boba, I agree, whatever works for you is prefectly OK. As long as it works for you, don't change a thing. It's your horse, afterall. My position is slightly different from yours in that a horse I ride, or work with is going to be with me for three months, four at the most. Then it goes back to it's owner. Most owners bring horses to me within a week after they bought them. More often than not the horse either doesn't do what the owner wants, or does what the owner doesn't want. So, I work with the horse to fix a problem, or to teach it something. For me, giving a piece of sugar to a horse to make it do what's expected, is unaceptable. The mode is "do as I said, and when I said it - I am your master." I leave it to the owners to do the damage. I teach a horse to do flying lead changes, and give it back to the owner. The owner is happy, the owner loves the horse, the owner feeds the horse carrots. Some day, the same horse will appear at my door, and it's new owner will say "I bought this horse from a guy, but the only way I can make it change the lead is to feed it five pounds of carrots!" Wanna guess, what I do next? Yup, I teach the horse to change leads. Again. On command. Because I said so!

Aesop was a slave, too. Except, he couldn't be controlled. So, his owner decided to set him free... Who needs a slave like that?...
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Владимир Гайнанов
7 апреля 2009, 01:01:59
Re: To be or not to be?...
You're right, if you only have 3-4 months - your relationship is quite different from my case, which is...let's count - I got him when he was 3 y.o., now he's 7 and jumps courses 120-130 cm. How do you control them - is this pain, or repetition, or some sort of NH? How do you know you are their master?

BTW, what did Aesop chhose when he was granted freedom? And when he WAS a slave, didn't his master think he is a master? ;-)
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cascaderanch
7 апреля 2009, 01:01:59
Re: To be or not to be?...
As far as I recall, Aesop pissed Delphians off and they threw him off a cliff?...

I use everything available to me. And, it seems, everything I do is described in one book or another. I don't go into extremes, like NH authors suggest. Let's remember, they didn't become rich training horses, they became rich selling books : ) However, there are quite a few things in NH that I agree with, and use.

Pain has it's place, and there is no substitute for it, especially where safety is concerned. If a horse tries to strike me, I will hit him, hard and keep chasing him all over the pen untill he submits (once it took almost 20 minutes!!). Now, NH says "stand where the horse can't strike you". Bullshit! Horse can strike you anywhere! Atack of an animal is just a blur!

Fortunately, largely due to the horses natural ability to learn, pain doesn't have to be relied on all the time. "Ugly voice" works wonders. I yell at a horse if I need to correct it, with a loud, angry, irritating voice. I can be really loud

I think the most important is persistence and patience. And not getting pissed off at the horse, or angry, or upset, or anything.

You won't hear anything from me that you haven't heard from someone else already . I am just doing what other preach. Plus, I learn as I go. Plus, (the most important!!!) I have time since I live on the ranch. If a horse is having a bad day, I'll just throw him back in his stall and leave him be for a few hours. I might work with a particular horse three 30-minute sessions in a day. If he does something wrong in the morning, I will fix it in the afternoon, or in the evening. If not - it will be the next morning. Or the morning after.

"How do I know I am their master?" test - I put horse's grain in his feeding bucket and make him do something in his stall. For example, I'll make him back up three feet, or start methodically cleaning his hoofs, or brushing him, or whatever. And all this time I won't let him eat. "You eat when I say you eat". It lasts five-ten minutes, but for him it's a century If I can keep him in check in front of his bucket - I am his superior.

By the way, from reading on this website I understand that some folks actually allow their horses to kick, or strike. I hope I misunderstood. That's something to be dealt with, not accepted as "oh, just one of his moods."
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Mikhail
7 апреля 2009, 01:01:59
Re: To be or not to be?...
Hi. I never knew people like you existed.
Obveousely there are professional approach and horse loving lovy dovy living in their dream people. All of us love horses. Difference is that some have hard working safe horses to ride others spoiled dangerous type. Guess who is who:-)
Oh boy. Our goals are different that is why the approach of handling the horses is a bit different.
Thank you for your post and welcome to my world of broken ribs, toes, fingers. etc... from spoiled pet horses brought to me for taming by local loving moms.
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cascaderanch
7 апреля 2009, 01:01:59
To Mikhail Kizimov
Well, it's harder for you, Mikhail. You teach horses to achieve their true potential. All I do is just teach train them up a bit. After all, I am just a Western hack. You have forgotten more about horses than I will ever know.

My regards to your great father, one of a very few true horsemen.
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Lidia
7 апреля 2009, 01:01:59
Re: To Mikhail Kizimov
I head to laugh at your mention of "ugly voice". I had to ride out a couple of ugly bucking fits earlier this week on a trail ride. While I was busy hanging on (I have a grab-strap on my english saddle) I didn't dare let go for a few seconds to do a one rein stop. But when I barked at the horse (something like "cut it out NOW") it broke his concentration enough for me to become effective .

I have a slightly different approach with treats. I do hand feed, but the horse must stay out of my space to get it. They are not allowed to mugs me for treats, no nozzling of the pockets, no sniffing around, no swinging their heads into me (that gets them a smak and a swift backing up). I do use teats to help teaching young horse to take the bridle and to stand for mounting. I will slowly faze it out. After a ride the horse gets a mint in the feed bucket.

As far as people allowing their horses to strike and kick...well have you seen the thread on how castration is a crime against horse's spirit?! something ot the effect - we had a wild one, it attacked people, so we sent him out to breed...make you wonder.


Regards,

Lidia
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cascaderanch
7 апреля 2009, 01:01:59
Re: To Mikhail Kizimov
Castration is definitely a crime when done on a wild horse. For instance, I find it appauling that The Burea of Land Management is considering castrating wild mustangs. However, where domesticated horse is concerned - what a ridiculous notion? "Nightmares of country mares" That's like refusing to fix the brakes on a truck because it's against the spirit of the truck. I need a horse that doesn't view reproduction as it's purpose in life.

For the first-time bit introduction - try dipping the bit into molasses, or honey - that's an ace of spades up the sleeve, and an instant winner.
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Capitalist pig
7 апреля 2009, 01:01:59
Re: To Cascade
So, did you fix your friggin' brakes?
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Capitalist pig
7 апреля 2009, 01:01:59
Re: To Cascade
Forgot to ask, why don't you tell everyone how molases work on Leo?
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Lidia
7 апреля 2009, 01:01:59
Re: To Cascade
Ok, so people now want to know what's the story with Leo and molasses?!
I think I'll stick to my mints - not as messy and still works.

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Capitalist pig
7 апреля 2009, 01:01:59
Re: To Cascade
He's not gonna tell. I will.

Leo swang his head, knocked Cascaderanch on his ass, spat the bit out, walked STRAIGHT into the tack room, three meters away, stuck his nose into the dish with molasses, and licked it clean while we all just doubled over laughing.
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Lidia
7 апреля 2009, 01:01:59
Re: To Cascade
LOL well, the moral of the story is - molasses on the bit MUST be the only source of molasses availalbe to the horse at the moment of bridling! Live and learn
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vyalshin
7 апреля 2009, 01:01:59
Re: To be or not to be?...